Any other hawswpipers?

JP · May 27th, 2009, 09:11 PM

I'm sure I can;t be the only one! How does the cost of state academies compare to paying for STCW classes now? I'm sure glad I got my 1600 master before the STCW was passed! I'm not sure I would be willing to go through all that 2 times, once was enough!!! Wondering what are the real differences in the STCW classes for limited licenses and for unlimited licenses. IMHO the unlimited classes were pretty basic....any thoughts?

**Capt. Lee** · May 28th, 2009, 07:24 AM

This August will mark the end of a 2 year journey to complete my Chief Mate STCW training. If I had known before starting this journey that it would be this long or have such an impact on my family, I do not think I would have even started. The classes have all been pretty basic. The only ones I learned anything in were Weather and Cargo. Initially I was paying for all the classes, housing, travel and food. Eventually I got with a company that covers all the expenses of the classes. I do feel better off for taking the classes. I have a much better feel for the industry overall and have met some really nice people and some not so nice people. I have taken courses at Star Center in Dania Beach, FL., Mid-Atlantic Maritime Academy in Virginia and MITAGS in Maryland. It is funny when I started this I thought this would be it, but once I complete all these classes and get my chief mate license I have two more weeks of training to complete for my OIM. For all those Engineers out there beware....STCW is coming for you guys next.

**injunear** · May 28th, 2009, 07:37 AM

I've advised every engineer and trainee to upgrade as soon as they get the time for several years. Ray Charles could see that the same people that screwed up the deck licenseing process will be gunning for the engineers next.

**mtskier** · May 28th, 2009, 11:10 AM

Hi JP,
I don't think that there are any STCW classes for limited vs unlimited. I have taken the same course work for my 1600 NC/ 500 Oceans as the folks sitting for the 3rd Unlimited. As per Chief Cavo the exams for OICNW are the same for 500T through 2nd Mate Unlimited even if the module numbers are different. As for costs, I paid PMI about 24K but with interest will be paying back about 30K. I submitted in March and hope to have my license by 1 July, so that has cost me another 12k between mortgage, insurance, etc...Capt Lee - Think ECO would have any interest in a 1600 NC/500 OC with towing endorsement, GMDSS, etc.?
MTSKIER

**Capt. Nemo** · May 28th, 2009, 11:25 AM

It makes me wonder, with the complexity and expense of it, how mariners from other countries are certified. Are they really trained or is their certification pencilwhipped?

The difficulty obtaining STCW compliance has made me quit trying. RFPNW, OINCW, GMDSS, ARPA, BST, Advanced firefighting, etc. It's easier, simpler and less expensive to get a doctorate!

I got the 100 ton Master, Radar Observer and AB...don't know what level yet, applied for Unlimited...but I think the rest is beyond my reach. I'm too old and fat to start over on deck and twenty-eight days at a time beating in and out of Fourchon or backed up to a rig isn't what I wan't to do. I could and would if I had to, but right now I don't.

I admire the guys who have the determination and patience to go all the way, either through an academy or the hawsepipe. It's a hell of a ride either way.

**Capt. Lee** · May 28th, 2009, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by mtskier

Hi JP,
Capt Lee - Think ECO would have any interest in a 1600 NC/500 OC with towing endorsement, GMDSS, etc.?
MTSKIER

I can not say one way or the other, but those qualifications definitely fit the description of many of their employees. With those credentials you should never be without work.

**Mr 100-ton** · May 28th, 2009, 05:52 PM

CAPT LEE
With all those courses you have taken,,, do you think they have helped both of your addictions???????? as you have mentions in the past on gcaptain..

All kidding aside,,, you have helped myself and other out VERY much and all of us APPRECIATE it.

Mr 100-ton soon to be Mr Mate OSV

**Capt. Lee** · May 28th, 2009, 06:16 PM

The happiest people in the world are those that do the most for others.

**Capt. Nemo** · May 29th, 2009, 05:37 PM

A philosopher too?

You do a lot of good. It should make you sleep well at night.

Thanks again for all the help. If you or yours ever need any, you know where to go.

Nemo

JP · May 30th, 2009, 03:25 AM

mtskier,
I was referring to the difference between classes for 1600 gt master/2nd/3rd mate unlimited vs classes for chief mate/master unlimited. I did not have to take the classes for my 1600 ton master since I got that in 1986 and my 2nd mate right before STCW 95 went into effect in Jan 2002. I just completed the classes for my upgrade to chief mate unlimited and got my license last fall. I do not see anything much advanced about any of those classes. I had course material much more in depth and advanced in my AB course at Brazosport College back in 1978. It was Coast Guard approved but not acceptable since STCW had not been invented yet! I have to say, I did enjoy the classes for the people I met but I do not think any of them were worth either the time I spent or the money. In fact, I would have to say for me, they were a total waste of both since I had already had training in all these subjects before.

As far as other countries mariners, I do think that many if not most of them are subsidized by thier governments. I also know that you can go through thier STCW programs in the Phillipines for example for less than $5000 but it is not acceptable by the US Coast Guard. Why? I don;t know. Seems to me since I was told the intent of forcing American Mariners to go through all this STCW training was to make sure everyone in the world had the same training that anywhere you take a class should be acceptable to every country.

**mtskier** · May 30th, 2009, 01:13 PM

Ahh, Guess I didn't follow you. I wonder if the real impact of STCW will be that through "uniform" training US firms will be able to do away with the Jones Act and hire other nationalities for pennies on the dollar (so to speak)....

JP · May 30th, 2009, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by mtskier

Ahh, Guess I didn't follow you. I wonder if the real impact of STCW will be that through "uniform" training US firms will be able to do away with the Jones Act and hire other nationalities for pennies on the dollar (so to speak)....

I believe that was the whole point!

**seadog!** · June 2nd, 2009, 07:10 AM

One of the best things I got out of attending all those classes was the time spent on breaks.

Swapping stories with mariners from different segments of this huge industry was enlightening and entertaining.

Yachtees talk yachts, tuggers talk tugs, ship guys talk ships and fishermen talk shit.

**jdcavo** · June 2nd, 2009, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Capt. Nemo

It makes me wonder, with the complexity and expense of it, how mariners from other countries are certified. Are they really trained or is their certification pencilwhipped?

The difficulty obtaining STCW compliance has made me quit trying. RFPNW, OINCW, GMDSS, ARPA, BST, Advanced firefighting, etc. It's easier, simpler and less expensive to get a doctorate!

Have you ever looked at what graduate school costs? I started law school 20 years ago and just finished paying the loans this year. The loans lasted twice as long as my legal career (the case that led me to reconsider was tried by a recent supreme court nominee from NY). For additional perspective, I made about half as much as a lawyer than I did when I was Chief Mate, and put in close to the same hours.

I don't have information on hawse-pipe progression in other countries (partly because the hawse-pipe doesn't exist inn many countries) but know that the US academies have less hours of training than the UK, Canada, Norway, and India.

Also, most counries do not approve or require their own training as they do not ISSUE STCW certidficates, they ENDORSE those from other countries (in simpler terms, they don't issue their own originals, they only give you one of theirs if you have one from another country).

**Capt. Nemo** · June 3rd, 2009, 11:45 AM

I stand corrected Sir. I wasn't aware of the enormous expense and complexity of the post-graduate studies required to pass the bar or the level that foreign countries exceed us in the required training of their mariners. By comparison I suppose obtaining a Master AGT Oceans from the USCG/Homeland Security is pretty cheap, simple and straightforward

.

All kidding aside, thanks for your good work. You're a great resource and a wealth of information. I don't generally like lawyers...but you're OK.

Nemo

**anchorman** · June 3rd, 2009, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Capt. Nemo

I stand corrected Sir. I wasn't aware of the enormous expense and complexity of the post-graduate studies required to pass the bar or the level that foreign countries exceed us in the required training of their mariners. By comparison I suppose obtaining a Master AGT Oceans from the USCG/Homeland Security is pretty cheap, simple and straitforward

.

All kidding aside, thanks for your good work. You're a great resource and a wealth of information. I don't generally like lawyers...but you're OK.

Nemo

The devil visited a lawyer's office and made him an offer. "I can arrange some things for you, " the devil said. "I'll increase your income five-fold. Your partners will love you; your clients will respect you; you'll have four months of vacation each year and live to be a hundred. All I require in return is that your wife's soul, your children's souls, and their children's souls rot in hell for eternity."

The lawyer thought for a moment. "What's the catch?" he asked.

**seafarer** · July 25th, 2009, 08:49 PM

The only way to make out with STCW is to teach. All you need is the Train the Trainer class and seatime.
Have fun.

**Cal** · July 27th, 2009, 02:54 AM

Hawsepiper, although for some reason a number of co-workers don't consider me as such. I'm merely taking the individual courses in a more organized, scheduled manner.

I'm in a 500/1600T Mate program at GMATS, more affectionately known as "Tugboat U". Today starts the last week of classes. My counterparts in another company had to sign a contract working with their employer for 5 years after completion or pay back the $60,000 cost of the program. How much of that is the cost of actual classes, lodging, transportation, and their wages being a extra man on the boat I'm not sure.

Prior to entry into this program I had looked at the individual courses at Pacific Maritime Institute and Maritime Professional Training. The cost of the classes alone was between $17,000 and $22,000. Meals, lodging, and transportation for classes was an extra expense.

I don't know if it's handled differently at different schools, but GMATS was teaching the subject matter. I know that some places teach you how to pass the exam, drilling question and answer. You may not know how to calculate or explain the answer, but you know it.

In working while taking these classes, I could offer numerous examples of why these courses are of importance. I asked one of my Mate's for help with an Azimuth, he asked me, "What the hell is that?" Some of the problem is that there is the way things should be done and then there is the way things are actually done.

JP - One may be able to take the STCW classes in the Phillipenes for $5,000, but think about this. I worked alongside some Fillipino's on deck a few years back. I made $200/day and they made $20/day for the same job/work.

**rjbpilot** · November 28th, 2009, 11:14 PM

Just think how much safer we all are now that we have our STCW endorsements!

**YoungEngineer** · December 9th, 2009, 01:04 AM

Many people call me a hawspiper due to no martime college. I got out of the Army in '06 and landed a job with a company that paid for classes after one year service. I am close to 4 years of service and have just recieved my DDE 4000 in April '09. It has been a long road as many of you have stated. I went to the schools on my time off working 28/14. Back to the subject at hand. Since my 4 years of service i aquired the following credentials.BST, AFF, AFA, MPIC, and many others. I estimate it cost the company with lodging, meals, and sometimes a day rate around $22K. I do agree with others on this post i would never do this again once is enough. However from what i can tell im a little ahead of the game since i now have an STCW, RFPEW, and OICEW. There are many posts here and a wealth of knowledge i used, Thanks again everyone.

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