maritime academy 1600 ton mate

[EHmarine]

I am soon to be graduating from sunny maritime in the limited licenses program. In the program i am supposed to get a 1600 ton mate licenses, however after reading some blogs in gcaptain and trying to understand the cfrs i am confused to what the coast guards requirements for upgrading to 1600 ton master. i believe it is two years sea time but am unsure. also is it possible to apply for the 500 ton master, is it also possible to upgrade to 3rd mate unlimited with additional sea time. would really appreciate the help.
thanks
Erik

[Capt. Fran]

46 CFR 11.412 Service requirements for master of ocean or near coastal steam or motor vessels of not more than 1600 gross tons.

The minimum service required to qualify an applicant for an endorsement as master of ocean or near coastal steam or motor vessels of not more than 1600 gross tons is:

(a) Four years total service on ocean or near coastal waters. Service on Great Lakes and inland waters may substitute for up to two years of the required service.

Two years of the required service must have been on vessels of over 100 gross tons.

Two years of the required service must have been as a master, mate master or mate (pilot) of towing vessels, or equivalent supervisory position while holding a license or MMC endorsement as master, mate, master or mate (pilot) of towing vessels.

One year of the service as master, mate, master or mate (pilot) of towing vessels, or equivalent supervisory position must have been on vessels of over 100 gross tons;


Bottom line: Step one: go out on your 1600 mates.
When you have 4 years total service, then see if from that 4 years you have at least 2 years on vessels over 100 gross tons.
From that same 4 years, see if you have at least 2 years as a master or mate.
From THAT 2 years as master or mate, see if you have 1 year on a vessel over 100 gross tons.

[Fuji]

EHmarine,

After reading the above post...have you considered staying at SUNY Maritime and earning your 3rd Mates License/MTRA B.S. Degree?

Fuji

[dougpine]

He actually might want to leave 'sunny" since they don't seem to have given him the career guidance he feels compelled to seek here at gCaptain. Not the most shining endorsement for their program, as far as I'm concerned.

[rjbpilot]

OUCH! The truth hurts!

[Capt. Fran]

Am I the only one that thinks that Academies, including workboat and limited license programs, i.e. Maine, Suny, PMI, etc., should have a cfr, nvic, policy letter, deck exam guide, etc. course?

Why are there so few mariners that don't know the basics? Wait a second, before you go all caps on me, I know that some of the regulations / policies are very difficult to figure out, but c'mon. Should I have to actually quote and then interpret 46 cfr 11 for a mariner that is about to graduate?

I think I need a break from being the resident reg queen. Either that, or I embrace my inner nerd and start a new business.

Clearly I need your help.

Here are your voting options:

1) Oh no, Fran! Don't leave us! Stay on the site and lead us away from evil!
2) Wow, Fran! I think you should go into business. Hell, I'd pay you $200 to make sure I don't step in any fecundal material enroute to my new license!
3) Fran! Shut the eff up, get off the couch and get a real job!

[dougpine]

2) Wow, Fran! I think you should go into business. Hell, I'd pay you $200 to make sure I don't step in any fecundal material enroute to my new license!

[cappy208]

Fran:
Not to touch a sore nerve, but these same issues are dealt with on a daily basis. How many times have you called a REC to find out an answer and gotten one, only to find when you actually GO to a REC you are rebuffed as having inaccurate info and they treat you like a leper since you 'obviously' don't know what you're doing?

E.G. Trying to find out recently about manning issues for towing vessels over 200GT, on voyages past the boundry line. There is a whole chapter of explanation about this. Then to find out Uncle Sams Confused Group doesn't enforce these parts of the law, and only enforces the 'uninspected towing vessel' manning guidelines regardless of tonnage and only enforces the 'over 600 mile' portion prescribing 3 watches! But actually there's NO enforcement unless you get caught! Trying to get straight (correct) answers to these issues is virtually impossible!

I was recently told by NMC I could go to Canada on a 1600GT NC license! Go figure! By definition a Near Coastal license is only valid within the US EEZ. As far as I know a kind lady at NMC was telling me that My license was good anywhere within 200 miles of shore..... any shore... WRONG.

However, your original discourse may be expecting too much from a recent graduate who hasn't even learned the ropes about how to actually perform the basic job he went to class for. BTW, Maritime Academies DO have places to go to get this type of info, but you have to GO there and ask for it. Like in real life there is no one holding your hand to 'give' you everything you may (or may not) want in life.

Maybe in a few years this newbie will figure out what/where/when he wants to go. Until then he is just looking for a nudge to find where to garner info that an experienced mariner knows as 'local knowledge'. I am sure we all didn't have our recency from the starting gate!

On a different topic: Anyone interested in upgrading to 500/1600 better do it soon. There are a whole lot of changes coming to licensing soon, as soon as the current STCW driven changes are approved and adopted. Get your application in ASAP.

[Ordinaryseaman]

Am I the only one that thinks that Academies, including workboat and limited license programs, i.e. Maine, Suny, PMI, etc., should have a cfr, nvic, policy letter, deck exam guide, etc. course?

Why are there so few mariners that don't know the basics? Wait a second, before you go all caps on me, I know that some of the regulations / policies are very difficult to figure out, but c'mon. Should I have to actually quote and then interpret 46 cfr 11 for a mariner that is about to graduate?

I think I need a break from being the resident reg queen. Either that, or I embrace my inner nerd and start a new business.

Clearly I need your help.

Here are your voting options:

1) Oh no, Fran! Don't leave us! Stay on the site and lead us away from evil!
2) Wow, Fran! I think you should go into business. Hell, I'd pay you $200 to make sure I don't step in any fecundal material enroute to my new license!
3) Fran! Shut the eff up, get off the couch and get a real job!

I think you should team up with PMI and other schools- and teach a class.

[Capt. Fran]

I think you should team up with PMI and other schools- and teach a class.

Thanks Anthony, I feel pretty good about my typing and sarcastic comment skills, but I'll leave that talking in front of a whole room of people to the professionals!

[Capt. Fran]

Fran:
Not to touch a sore nerve, but these same issues are dealt with on a daily basis. How many times have you called a REC to find out an answer and gotten one, only to find when you actually GO to a REC you are rebuffed as having inaccurate info and they treat you like a leper since you 'obviously' don't know what you're doing?

E.G. Trying to find out recently about manning issues for towing vessels over 200GT, on voyages past the boundry line. There is a whole chapter of explanation about this. Then to find out Uncle Sams Confused Group doesn't enforce these parts of the law, and only enforces the 'uninspected towing vessel' manning guidelines regardless of tonnage and only enforces the 'over 600 mile' portion prescribing 3 watches! But actually there's NO enforcement unless you get caught! Trying to get straight (correct) answers to these issues is virtually impossible!

I was recently told by NMC I could go to Canada on a 1600GT NC license! Go figure! By definition a Near Coastal license is only valid within the US EEZ. As far as I know a kind lady at NMC was telling me that My license was good anywhere within 200 miles of shore..... any shore... WRONG.

However, your original discourse may be expecting too much from a recent graduate who hasn't even learned the ropes about how to actually perform the basic job he went to class for. BTW, Maritime Academies DO have places to go to get this type of info, but you have to GO there and ask for it. Like in real life there is no one holding your hand to 'give' you everything you may (or may not) want in life.

Maybe in a few years this newbie will figure out what/where/when he wants to go. Until then he is just looking for a nudge to find where to garner info that an experienced mariner knows as 'local knowledge'. I am sure we all didn't have our recency from the starting gate!

On a different topic: Anyone interested in upgrading to 500/1600 better do it soon. There are a whole lot of changes coming to licensing soon, as soon as the current STCW driven changes are approved and adopted. Get your application in ASAP.

Hey Cappy, no worries, no sore nerve touched. I totally get it that the bureaucratic credentialing arm of the USCG does NOT help the mariner get a handle on the circuitous and dynamic mine field that we call "the pathway" to a license. There is no way that any of that knowledge is inherent; you need to be shown the way. I just was wishing that more training institutions gave the mariner a few more tools to help him/her out, hence my 46cfr11 rant. Pay no attention to the crazy lady in the corner...

By the way, your definition of the definition of near coastal license is a little off course. If you have STCW OICNW along with your 1600 NC, then there is no reason why you couldn't go to Canada (well, no reason from a licensing perspective, but if you have a DUI, fuggedaboudit). Matter of fact, before I got an oceans endorsement, I went to Canada and Mexico on my near coastal. Not sure where you picked up the EEZ idea, but that's wrong. (Mr. Cavo will jump in here any minute and remind us that the near coastal licenses are not intended to be used to go around the world by hugging the coast, but he'll also dig some convention somewhere out of his bag of shiny tricks and tell us the US, Canada and Mexico got a little agreement about NC licenses, or something like that. But trust me, you can go to Canada.)

And one last thing, you are indeed correct that there are a bunch of proposed changes to the current license scheme. There are also a bunch of posted threads on this forum dedicated to that very topic. Search NPRM for the thread that Danzante started way back when.

[Jon]

2) Wow, Fran! I think you should go into business. Hell, I'd pay you $200 to make sure I don't step in any fecundal material enroute to my new license!

[Shellback]

Fran:
Not to touch a sore nerve, but these same issues are dealt with on a daily basis. How many times have you called a REC to find out an answer and gotten one, only to find when you actually GO to a REC you are rebuffed as having inaccurate info and they treat you like a leper since you 'obviously' don't know what you're doing?

E.G. Trying to find out recently about manning issues for towing vessels over 200GT, on voyages past the boundry line. There is a whole chapter of explanation about this. Then to find out Uncle Sams Confused Group doesn't enforce these parts of the law, and only enforces the 'uninspected towing vessel' manning guidelines regardless of tonnage and only enforces the 'over 600 mile' portion prescribing 3 watches! But actually there's NO enforcement unless you get caught! Trying to get straight (correct) answers to these issues is virtually impossible!

I was recently told by NMC I could go to Canada on a 1600GT NC license! Go figure! By definition a Near Coastal license is only valid within the US EEZ. As far as I know a kind lady at NMC was telling me that My license was good anywhere within 200 miles of shore..... any shore... WRONG.

However, your original discourse may be expecting too much from a recent graduate who hasn't even learned the ropes about how to actually perform the basic job he went to class for. BTW, Maritime Academies DO have places to go to get this type of info, but you have to GO there and ask for it. Like in real life there is no one holding your hand to 'give' you everything you may (or may not) want in life.

Maybe in a few years this newbie will figure out what/where/when he wants to go. Until then he is just looking for a nudge to find where to garner info that an experienced mariner knows as 'local knowledge'. I am sure we all didn't have our recency from the starting gate!

On a different topic: Anyone interested in upgrading to 500/1600 better do it soon. There are a whole lot of changes coming to licensing soon, as soon as the current STCW driven changes are approved and adopted. Get your application in ASAP.

After discovering gcaptain, the CFR and MSM I couldn't imagine ever calling a REC or the NMC for anything...Unless to argue my point which seems to happen a lot more these days...

[richard8000milesaway]

yeah, I'll go with the US$200 for Fran. good writers deserve kudos. and cash. well, both actually.

[trekleader]

After discovering gcaptain, the CFR and MSM I couldn't imagine ever calling a REC or the NMC for anything...Unless to argue my point which seems to happen a lot more these days...

Doesn't it feel great to feel empowered?

[Jeffrox]

I was bored....
I found these germane passages in USCG NVIC 07-00; I read them as generic for any license.
4. a. (4) STCW regulations I/1 defines near coastal voyages as those voyages in the vicinity of a Party (signatory government) as defined by the Party. Each party to STCW has defined its own boundary for near coastal waters and that boundary may not be consistent with the definition within 46 CFR 10.103 (Near Coastal means waters not more than 200 miles offshore). STCW section B-I/3 explains that near coastal voyages should not be extended worldwide and where the near coastal voyages include voyages off another Party’s coast, a bilateral agreement should be established.

4. b. (3) The Coast Guard considers near coastal voyages to be those voyages within 200 miles of U.S. shore and within the jurisdictional waters of the U.S.


From the Canada Shipping Act 2001, The four new voyage classifications are:

1. Unlimited voyage:
   
   • A voyage that is not a sheltered voyage
   • Not a near-coastal voyage, Class 2
   • Not a near-coastal voyage, Class 1
2. Near coastal voyage, Class 1:
   
   • A voyage that is not a sheltered water voyage or a near coastal voyage, Class 2
   • A voyage that is between places in Canada, the United States (except Hawaii), Saint Pierre and Miquelon, the West Indies, Mexico, Central America or the northeast coast of South America
   • A voyage during which the vessel is always north of latitude 6 degrees north and within 200 nautical miles from shore or above the continental shelf
3. Near coastal voyage, Class 2:
   
   • A voyage that is not a sheltered water voyage
   • A voyage within 25 nautical miles from shore in waters contiguous to Canada, the United States (except Hawaii) or Saint Pierre and Miquelon, and within 100 nautical miles from a place of refuge
4. Sheltered waters voyage:
   
   • A voyage that is in Canada on a lake or a river above tidal waters – where a vessel can never be further than one nautical mile from the closest shore
   • A voyage that is on the waters listed in column 1 of an item of Schedule 1 during the period specified in column 2 of that item
   • A voyage that is made by a ferry between two or more points listed in column 1 of an item in Schedule 2 during the period specified in column 2 of that item

“MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES COAST GUARD AND TRANSPORT CANADA RESPECTING MUTUAL RECOGNITION OF DOMESTIC MARINER QUALIFICATIONS” is here:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/tp-tp13585-policy-mou-uscg-tc-594.htm

[jdcavo]

Fran:I was recently told by NMC I could go to Canada on a 1600GT NC license! Go figure! By definition a Near Coastal license is only valid within the US EEZ. As far as I know a kind lady at NMC was telling me that My license was good anywhere within 200 miles of shore..... any shore... WRONG...

NMC is correct. The United States has a memorandum of understanding with Canada that provides if a mariner's credentials are good to operate in thier own country's waters, they are acceptable in the other's. So if your U.S. credentials allow you to operate in U.S. waters, they are valid in Canada.

[cappy208]

Thanks JD Cavo for that info, however when I fwd this to the office imagine how they'll react to this info, since they paid a 'consultant' (retired uscg) to get the wrong info for them! If a recently retired USCG Ltcdr gets the wrong info, how can the rest of us expect to find the straight dope?

My point is why is this SO difficult to get the answers to what should be a straightforward question? The system of Navic's is flawed, because that is the interpretation of the US code. Why isn't this just written on ONE page, where a license holder can go? Why do we have to jump from US code, to CFR, to Navic? I realize everyone wants a job, but this is ridiculous!

Although I may have worded it incorrectly, a Near Coastal license is good only within the US EEZ, (unless a special agreement is in place between STCW members) However, this gets back to my point; Why isn't this all written in one place? The map I saw last week, showing the limits of the Near Coastal license are pretty clear. Your license is not good 200 miles south of Key West for example. There's a little thing called Cuba in the way! Nor is it good 200 miles East of Miami, The Bahamas are there! So the 200 mile limit is with exceptions, and direction. The license is not good if it is clouded in misinterpretation. Clearing the confusion is the desire, not understanding why it hasn't been done is the problem.

[Jeffrox]

I spent about 4 hours googling the info in my post above. The MOU was found at a Canadian website, I never did find it on a U.S. website. The other info was "hidden" in NVIC 07-00. It seems we are all doomed to have searching for info as a subset skill to being a U.S. Mariner.

[Cal]

Am I the only one that thinks that Academies, including workboat and limited license programs, i.e. Maine, Suny, PMI, etc., should have a cfr, nvic, policy letter, deck exam guide, etc. course?

No, you're not. As a graduate of the, "etc." (GMATS), it would have made figuring out what I actually needed to apply for much easier. In the end, I instructed the instructors on what license I was applying for. One had at least seen a license like mine and was able to help me interpret the CFR's, even if he wasn't 100% sure the interpretation was accurate.

With other areas of federal law the CFR's are annotated, meaning someone has sued someone and a court has had to interpret what the law means, then that meaning, and the referenced court case, is included with the CFR. Makes some things a bit easier.

I think centralizing at the NMC is the beginning of an effort to attain consistency in information and application. They are fast approaching the point at which one will wonder if they'll ever achieve it.