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gCaptain Crew
I know the last photos of the wheel house that were blown to smitheriens by rpg's... Don't know how long I would hang onto my water hose with lead flying past me. The entire problem is weapons (gun powder weapons), versus non gun powder weapons. The native American Indian was far superior to any soldier back then but the gun powder did them. Our sailors are more likely to get killed trying to stave off pirates with loud halers, fire hoses, rubber bullets or what ever it may be. It will be very hard to hold your ground when you know without a doubt you are out gunned. If the Master can not evade then to heck with it.
It is hard enough to teach someone to shoot a simple firearm. Now we expect them to learn a harder more methodical defense tactic which requires, a lot more than point and shoot.
I hope the weapons are lethal. If not what doesn't kill us only makes us stronger.
I guess since I do not know all the ins and outs of what ships are doing it is hard for me to understand. At least companies are making a pretty penny coming up with new ways to defend. I would say save all that money so they can just cough up the ransom and get the mariners off the ship. I am sure the consulting firms are not less than 1,000,000 any way you look at it.
gCaptain Crew
Defending a vessel is far different than defending the perimeter of a piece of ground. You actually have many advantages in vessel defense that far outweigh the disadvantage of using less lethal force. Loud halers are more expensive than the value they give in this situation, I surely would not stand there with a fire hose and no rubber bullets. Fire systems do have a good value if used properly. When defending a ship, we had mentioned before that early detection is a main key element in defending the ship. The approaching attacker has no cover or concealment in order to have the advantage of a surprise attack. This gives you another advantage by making it obvious that you have seen the attacker and give a high visibility, organized, well defined response. Psychological impact is as important as weapons. You also have the advantage to prepare for the attack days before it happens, in order to take steps to harden the ship against the attack and maximize the safety of the crew during an attack. Even though you are the one being attacked, you have the element of surprise, because they do not know what you are prepared for. Obviously, you want to display your organized readiness, but you do not want to display all of your resistance capability until the appropriate time. Unfortunately I can't list all of our measures here, what I can say, is our response is a cohesive effort with the ship and it's crew. The pirate is most vulnerable when he is closest to the ship. Initially he has the advantage of maneuverability, but as soon as he gets alongside, that advantage is gone. Of course the Master will maneuver as much as possible to prevent that, nevertheless, this is the pirates most vulnerable moment. At this point, you can easily disable the pirates craft and the pirates, if you are prepared with the proper measures and tactics. I guess it is kind of like guerrilla warfare in a sense. Don't expose your ability until you have the advantage of effectiveness and surprise. So you have three options; don nothing and hope you can outrun them, try to train a skeleton crew in the advanced methods of defense, or hire a trained security team with the correct methods and equipment to defend the ship.
gCaptain Crew
Are these measures applied while taking fire? I would think not ideally and I guess once they are along side there weapons are even less of a factor due to angles. Curious to see how all these tactics play out in the future. Do you believe we will hear about any ships that succumb to pirates even after the organized defense or will they probably not mention it did not work? If it ever happens and hopefully it does not.
How much damage has the average seized ship been receiving before boarding? The only one I saw was pretty torn up.
gCaptain Crew
That is why the early detection is so important so that you can respond into position before the pirates use their weapons. And yes, while you are taking fire. However, there is not that much firing as it is usually a scare tactic to get the ship to stop. The only incident I know of where a ship was hijacked with a team on board, well lets just say, the team was too small and not prepared. You are correct about angles, the old saying applies, don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes.
gCaptain Crew
Early detection. I really like this one.
I suppose they use non metallic boats kind of hard to seperate from sea return.
So you will need look outs. Lots of look outs. At night guaranteed they will need to be close for sightings.
Back to square one, have a team on board with loud hailer (LRAD) and fire hoses. Cause they can't shoot back, no firearms.
Would someone tell me again why the US tax payer spends so much on defense. If our merchant ships must defend themselves without use of firearms.
What does that song phrase about "Tripoli" really mean? With this economy and two wars can't afford it anyways. Square one again!
Administrator
Early detection is critical which is why we have been working with AeroMech Engineering to get UAV's to fly over the GOA.
gCaptain Crew
Now I need to get everyone trained how to use a drone to look for possible pirates? Another certification on the ol STCW?
What about the other STCW requirement, rest periods? I really don't think commercial companies are going hire a drone operator.
How about someones Navy performing their job? Would not even need this thread if someone somewhere would do their job.
How did they do it in the old days? Pay tribute. So lets take the money we pay for a Navy and give it to these countries that harbor pirates so they won't attack our ships. Problem solved!
Top Contributer
The problem of course is that our glorious military doesn't want to soil itself fighting lowly untermention pirates. Too far beneath their exhalted greatness!
I know, let's send a Seawolf sub, a few Aegis cruisers and some F22's and B2's over there! $100's of billions of ultra hightech weapons to fight a bunch of drugged up bums in t-shirts and they still wouldn't be able to do s**t to stop them!
Old Salt
Hmmmmm.....maybe we should think about fighting fire, with fire.Originally Posted by c.captain
I'm sure we can find "a bunch of drugged up bums in t-shirts" of our own that know how to fire a MA-2 and run a RHIB for a decent salary. Stick a few cutters with a few "squads" of our own special brand of "oh shit" over there, and let them have at it. Only "gangs" know how to deal with "gangs". Imagine what the reaction would be if they saw "Lance" on the twins, coming at them in a PBR that was running wide open?
Why bother hiring a "contractor" like Blackwater for way too much money?
Top Contributer
Divin a large fast boat firin heavy calibre full auto weapons at the same time!
SIGN ME UP FOR SOME O THAT KINDA FUN!
gCaptain Crew
Only one problem with your theories, if the naval vessels can't find them, then you "gangs" of thugs are not going to find them to have their bit of fun. the only way to defend the ship, is to be on the ship when it is attacked with a well planned well organized defense. Otherwise, stay home.
gCaptain Crew
Since January 1st, according to the IMB Live Piracy Map off the coast of Somalia, there has been 23 piracy attacks on merchant vessels. 4 of these attacks have resulted in hijacking. the most curious thing is there has only been one suspicious vessel reported the entire last two months. Gosh, maybe there is a need for a trained team on board for the early detection of the pirates?
Old Salt
All of which has been advocated ad infinitum for years as it regarded to the Straits of Malaaca. Piracy there started to subside after armed patrol boats entered the area, finally, from Indonesia and Malaysia - which incidentally the U.S. bought and paid for, and gave to those two nations.
I certainly feel that every vessel needs to be prepared to repel boarders/pirates, that certainly is not a question. I do feel though, that that needs to be coupled with a realistic waterborne response to dissuade the piracy actions to begin with. So, I won't call your "solution" a sales pitch, just as you should not be offended, or find problematic, if several nations all of a sudden decide that an appropriate show of force might be warranted. Besides, if we can escort the QM2 into New York Harbor with half of the NYPD's Marine Unit on station, I don't think it's a far stretch to think we can put together an appropriate plan of action to put in place in the Gulf of Aden. It all stems on the desire to deal with it.
Besides, the naval vessels need to "be there", to detect them. Not until very recently has that been the case.
gCaptain Crew
you are absolutely correct and i am certainly not offended. We need the naval forces there and they are of great value. However, the area off of Somalia is much larger than the area of the Malacca Straights. If you couple the ships readiness with the various navies capability to respond, then you can maximize your effectiveness. The area is so large, with so many commercial vessels transiting the area, it has to be a combined effort of both entities. You can not rely on naval forces alone. It's actually not a sales pitch, the fact is, I can not find other like companies to participate in these discussions.
Old Salt
I wish they would, and trust me when I say we're glad to have you here to bounce ideas off of you. I'll try to get at least one more person in the biz to stick his head in here once in a while, and maybe we can keep the gray matter working on the subject.
For far too long, the work of the IMB was taken as "eccentric", and "overzealous", are two words that stick out in my mind from a training class at GMATS. I suppose now everyone wished they had paid a little more attention, and that the Navy had a few LCS's already in service, and ready for "trials".
Hoist an ESQ and Coke for me when you have a chance...and I'll buy the next round.
In the meantime, thank you!
gCaptain Crew
I am at GMT+8 so I have hoisted my Rum. The title of this thread is Armed VS Unarmed Merchant Vessel Protection. I would like to point out that not having "Firearms" does not mean you can not be armed (Depending on the definition of firearms). we are constantly working on new methods to avoid, delay and prevent attacks and hijackings. We believe to be effective in the industry, we have to consistently improve methods, as any company in any industry should do. We have 'tools' that can reach out and talk to you at 400+ meters, but that is not the wise move in this type of situation. The ship, as a target is very large and it's maneuverability hampered by its size. The pirate skiff is very small and very maneuverable in the sea. If I were to show my hand too soon, it is more likely that we are going to take more rounds than they are, even if we fired more rounds. So tactics and proper strategy must come into play to maximize our effectiveness and take away any advantage they may have. This is not a combat situation, so even though they have AK-47s and RPG's, their intent is to hijack for ransom, not destroy an enemy. If you react too soon or improperly, you could change their motive to the latter. That being said, early detection is the biggest key, then the organized proper response next. Should it come to the point where our "Tools" are needed, that is the last step. Now if your strategy is planned and done correctly, the pirate actually has no advantages at all. He is attacking a moving elevated 'position' with intent of climbing on board for the purpose of hijacking for ransom. Upon approach, he has no cover or concealment to aid his approach, he has no idea what is in store for him should he be able to get close to the ship. When next to the ship, fiddling with a 10 meter ladder, his hands are occupied and he has no line of sight firing capability. Unfortunately, I can not go into the details of our defense plan, but I think you can start to realize, that if your timing is correct, with the proper 'tools', you can make the pirate wish he had stayed home that day. To a client, we will disclose our methods, but on an open forum such as this, we simply can not do that. One other hint, make sure you choose a company in which their security team is dressed to blend with the crew, not wearing tactical uniforms. Just ponder on that.
Top Contributer
Current protection for mariners
gCaptain Crew
If that is the current level of protection for mariner's, who's fault is that? Certainly not the mariner, and certainly not the military.
gCaptain Crew
As one that could be plying the waters mentioned above. Awfully sad state of affairs.
Got ships hijacked and unarmed crews put in jepordy. For what, doing thier job?
How bout a no sail area for boats less than xx feet that extends from 50 miles to 500 miles off the coast of the areas in question? I have heard of "no fly" zones so how bout "no sail" zones??
Still waiting for someones Navy to perform their historical function. This should have ended long ago. So what is it going to take??
gCaptain Crew
I have to give the Navy credit for what they are doing. The Navy is following their orders and they have had an impact. However, there would be no feasible way to put a rifle team on every ship, and certainly not on a foreign flagged vessel. Certainly each shipping company has to conduct their own risk assessments and determine what course of action they will take. Shipping is private enterprise and as in any private enterprise, there is risk management considerations, and these are evaluated with other considerations. The shipping company determines, from their own assessment, whether to provide security for the vessel and crew. Unfortunately, it is the seafarer that sails the ship and is the victim or beneficiary of those decisions. Private security does not have to be that expensive. Although there are companies charging huge amounts to conduct security, there are those that are charging reasonable rates for their services. I am not trying to plug my company, these are facts that anyone can find out with a bit of research. A vessel being hijacked and a company paying a few million in ransom is not the big picture impact. The impact is on the seafarer that had to endure the captivity by the pirates. I am sure that the mental impact of that will be a lifelong nightmare to remember.
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