IMO regulations

**mwillmes** · June 23rd, 2009, 05:41 PM

I am a deck officer aboard the Washington State ferries. Recently another union negotiated with WSF management to have our Quartermaster and Bos'n positions assigned by seniority. Is anyone familiar with an IMO or CFR that would ( Could ) negate the agreement that office management agreed to. As Deck officers we feel that we no longer have any choice even if the most senior person is incompetent. ( This ruling pertains to the AB position only.)
Our hands are tied.

Thanks in advance

Mark

**dougpine** · June 23rd, 2009, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by mwillmes

I am a deck officer aboard the Washington State ferries. Recently another union negotiated with WSF management to have our Quartermaster and Bos'n positions assigned by seniority. Is anyone familiar with an IMO or CFR that would ( Could ) negate the agreement that office management agreed to. As Deck officers we feel that we no longer have any choice even if the most senior person is incompetent. ( This ruling pertains to the AB position only.)
Our hands are tied.

Thanks in advance

Mark

They finally got that one through, huh? Ouch.

**Capt_Anonymous** · June 23rd, 2009, 07:29 PM

I don't know, but this might help, especially on those boats:

§ 78.47–57 Rudder orders.
(a) At all steering stations, there
shall be installed a suitable notice on
the wheel or device of in such other position
as to be directly in the helmsman’s
line of vision, to indicate the direction
in which the wheel or device
must be turned for ‘‘right rudder’’ and
for ‘‘left rudder.’’

In all seriousness though, I would think that if the ABs in question are holding a valid MMC with RFPNW, you're pretty much out of luck. You get what you get. The only way around it would be for the deck officers involved to claim that the AB is incompetent, and that opens a whole new can of worms doesn't it? But until someone has the guts to do just that I think you're fucked. What does MM&P's legal dept. have to say on this?

**mwillmes** · June 23rd, 2009, 08:05 PM

Haven't checked with the union's lawyers, but I think that what you said rings true. I just don't like not being able to choose who quarters. I don't want to babysit and have an employee that I don't trust.

**mike173** · June 23rd, 2009, 08:24 PM

I'm a union guy (former unlicensed, currently licensed), but can give you a unbiased opinion. As Capt_A put it, you are pretty much fucked. You get who you get, but union guys can, and do, get fired all the time. I don't know which union you're referring to. The key, if you want to get rid of someone, is to build a case. Just like on land. If they are a problem, or just incompetent, you can get rid of them. The usual course of action is verbal warning, written warning, discharge. I've seen guys written up and fired for the smallest infractions, because they were worthless, or a problem. I've seen guys miss the ship, and not get fired, because they were otherwise worthwhile crewmembers. Infractions for warnings or discharge can include anything. Poor steering, standing a poor or improper lookout, late for watch, not wearing proper PPE, violation of any company policy. Depending on the standing orders, I've seen a guy get logged for talking on the cell phone during gangway watch. Point is, if you really want to get rid of a guy, you can. The key is for the Chief Mate, Chief Engineer, and Captain to know the contract better than the crew. Most have never read it once. The contract works both ways. The crew must also abide by it. And remember, I'm a union man. But nothing's worse than an AB who can't steer. Except maybe a Mate who can't make a command decision.

**dougpine** · June 23rd, 2009, 08:45 PM

I worked on those ferries for about five years, so I can sympathize with Mark. It won't be easy, but some deck officer will have to have the resolve to follow through by documenting the incompetence that is found in some of the crewmembers. Until that happens, nothing will change. But it will be something new to complain about for a while, and that is always nice.

**Capt_Anonymous** · June 23rd, 2009, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by dougpine

I worked on those ferries for about five years, so I can sympathize with Mark. It won't be easy, but some deck officer will have to have the resolve to follow through by documenting the incompetence that is found in some of the crewmembers. Until that happens, nothing will change. But it will be something new to complain about for a while, and that is always nice.

Nothing will change until there's a collision/allision/grounding and then it won't change anyhow because it will be the Master's fault.

**mwillmes** · June 23rd, 2009, 08:52 PM

Thanks Doug:

I myself have a great Quartermaster ( I'm one of the lucky ones) . I just feel sorry for the ones who don't. Hopefully we can find a work around this situation.

**dougpine** · June 23rd, 2009, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by mwillmes

Thanks Doug:

I myself have a great Quartermaster ( I'm one of the lucky ones) . I just feel sorry for the ones who don't. Hopefully we can find a work around this situation.

Stay away from Kingston "D" then...

**mwillmes** · June 23rd, 2009, 08:57 PM

Yeah, That guy there is too short to see the compass

**dougpine** · June 23rd, 2009, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by mwillmes

Yeah, That guy there is too short to see the compass

They should give him Karin's old milk crate.

**Kennebec Captain** · June 24th, 2009, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by mike173

If they are a problem, or just incompetent, you can get rid of them. The usual course of action is verbal warning, written warning, discharge.

What's so tough about that? I have a folder on my hard drive with warning letters and letters of dismissal. I pull one up, change the date and the name of the offender and in a couple of minutes I'm done. The warnings and firings take about five minutes. Deep sea the problems is justifying the cost of having someone flown out to Singapore of wherever, ferries don't have that problem. I don't see what the beef is.

**mwillmes** · June 24th, 2009, 10:21 AM

I guess the Ferry system is not the real world. I can see giving someone a chance, even a third, fourth......etc. Unfortunately I have already documented several cases about an employee along with other officers ( 8 disciplinary notices so far ) and this person is still employed.

**seadawg** · June 24th, 2009, 01:10 PM

if the union/management has a written policy for disciplinary/termination procedures that they require you to follow then they are mandated to react to those same procedures..have encounted this problem in the past and when confronted with the implications management didn't hesitate react!

**dougpine** · June 24th, 2009, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by mwillmes

I guess the Ferry system is not the real world. I can see giving someone a chance, even a third, fourth......etc. Unfortunately I have already documented several cases about an employee along with other officers ( 8 disciplinary notices so far ) and this person is still employed.

Washington State gets sued every time they fire someone from the ferry system, and so they simply don't let people go, except under exceptional circumstances. The ferry system has a disproportionate share of bad apples,which is too bad because there are so many very good people who work there as well.

**Kennebec Captain** · June 24th, 2009, 05:16 PM

I don't know anything about WSF but in general the procedures for dismissing someone who has violated the rules or is not competent are clear cut. If people who are being fired are filing successful lawsuits then management is incompetent.

**Capt_Anonymous** · June 24th, 2009, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kennebec Captain

I don't know anything about WSF but in general the procedures for dismissing someone who has violated the rules or is not competent are clear cut. If people who are being fired are filing successful lawsuits then management is incompetent.

Bingo!!!!!

**mike173** · June 24th, 2009, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Kennebec Captain

I don't know anything about WSF but in general the procedures for dismissing someone who has violated the rules or is not competent are clear cut. If people who are being fired are filing successful lawsuits then management is incompetent.

Well said.

**mwillmes** · June 24th, 2009, 07:32 PM

Exactly and I could go on and on and on......

The problem lies in the fact that the deck officers are bound by contract that was not negotiated with us as mm&p members. I understand preserving seniority for the workers who have been with the company the longest and most of the time senior AB's are either the QM or Bos'n. ( I forgot to mention that the QM & Bos'n position receive an extra pay incentive , hence the reason for the position by seniority).

I just wish we could have added our two cents into the contract

Mark

**mike173** · June 24th, 2009, 07:45 PM

Just looked up the WSF website. Says the deck crew is IBU. Is that correct? If officers are MMP and crew is IBU, exactly what input should you have in their contract negotiations?